It sure is an exciting time as the European science community puts history’s largest atom smasher/particle accelerator/supercollider online this week. As much of the world has it’s eyes on china, the more relevant moment in recent human history may be occurring in a pastoral country side.
It’s sad because the US used to lead when it came to massive adventurous projects like this but, alas, it’s one other thing we no longer can claim superiority. The state of science in America is not irreversible though. Here is to hoping budgets increase for the scientists instead to rebuilding countries we’ve destroyed.
This is one of the many stunning pictures of the innards of the collider,. This particular part is an experiment that will track how silicon is affected by the subatomic particles that may appear when the hydrogen atoms are smashed open. And those are people with helmets down there.
→ 32 comments so far ↓
1
jake
// Aug 7, 2008 at 9:47 am
At first glance I was sure I was looking at some kind of art work.
I agree that our position is reversible, and am optimistic that each of you voting for Obama will be a step in that direction. I realize, of course, that I’m preaching to the choir…
2
greg
// Aug 7, 2008 at 9:50 am
people better start thinking that voting for obama is the least they can do to reverse things. it’s way way way far from enough.
3
NateG
// Aug 7, 2008 at 10:35 am
Uhm, so i wouldn’t say building the new particle accelerator in europe is a sign of U.S. weakness in science…
It shows how international the scientific community is. I would say (not really knowing, but intelligently guessing) that a majority of the funding for this bitch comes from U.S. Colleges and such. A lot of my old professors and even some of my old classmates were/are working on developing a lot of the technology that goes into that bad boy up above at UCSC when i left. (UCSC has some bad ass particle physicists!)
They tend to build things like the particle accelerator above in places where they won’t get hassled by a string of lawsuits from people who are scared of shit like this… there was already a lawsuit attempted by some guy from hawaii who was trying to shut down the operation cuz there was like a 1 in 50 million chance that this bad boy could create “mini black-holes” and therefore that would destroy mankind…
anyways… i agree that science funding on the public level is shit here in the U.S…. and one of the reasons i like Mr. Obama the most is that he realizes the importance of funding science and engineering programs in this country!
I would say that our science institutions and corporations are still the best in the world… they just should’ve been a lot better, but like bitches keep slashing the education budget.
4
heypal
// Aug 7, 2008 at 11:00 am
if that thing destroys a continent (optimistically speaking – there are some who say it will destroy our corner of the universe) i say let it be a continent that’s not the one on which i live.
5
greg
// Aug 7, 2008 at 11:06 am
nate, as much i want us to be the best, budgets are decreasing everywhere, americans are not choosing careers in science at an alarming rate. CERN is a symbol. we planned a device like this that was even bigger, but was shelved at the turn of the century.
hey pal, just so you know, if anything destroys another continent, you will definitely feel it.
6
tariann
// Aug 7, 2008 at 11:15 am
I think it’s beautiful.
However, when it rips a hole into a parallel universe and the cybermen invade and assimilate, enslave and/or delete us all and Dr Who isn’t here to save us it will be a bit of a bummer.
7
greg
// Aug 7, 2008 at 11:21 am
it destroying anything would have more to do with the energy plants that feed it, than it creating a black hole strong enough to consume anything. its as likely as you melting and reappearing on the other side of the universe.
8
pete g
// Aug 7, 2008 at 11:34 am
“it’s as likely as you melting and reappearing on the other side of the universe.”
I think my friend JCP did this a few weekends ago.
9
greg
// Aug 7, 2008 at 11:35 am
hahaha i actually sat here and thought about how awesome that would be. like that scene in galaxy quest.
10
heypal
// Aug 7, 2008 at 11:39 am
@greg: feeling it is okay, in the grand scheme of things. being killed by it is not. i don’t understand why people aren’t more afraid of science. haven’t you ever seen even one movie? 2001? tron? inner space?
11
NateG
// Aug 7, 2008 at 11:43 am
Uh… i am not the expert, but i had professors who were actually on the committees who were deciding where to put this biotch… majority of scientists working on this started at stanford worked at the stanford linear accelerator before and such and at the turn of the century all this was delayed because of timings of technology (and budget yes, but more like they felt they were not done at stanford)… its also like the rest of the world was tired of flying to the US to do work, because many important projects in physics/science/otherwise have been here…. japan was fighting hard to have the new accelerator put there as recently as when i was in physics 101 like 2.5 years ago…
The size and location of the new accelerator has been debated for years.. i believe our DOE was not as willing to put up as much $$$ but even the SLAC (stanford linear accelerator) was an international effort…
Uhm, i still feel like we have the best scientists and engineers in house quite simply cuz we (as a country overall) have the most $$$ and the highest quality of life… Like every job i have ever had in engineering was filled with people from all over the world who got to come to the states cuz they were the best and the brightest (like graduated first in class at country’s respective MIT/Princeton) and we get to pay them 50k a year and call it good.
Uhm, i do totally want our budgets to increase… just trying to point out that we’re not fucked yet… that will be in coming years if we don’t change soon…
12
phil
// Aug 7, 2008 at 11:44 am
Heypal, what that guy in Hawaii was suing about, if it took place would take the moon out of orbit and end all life on earth. A mini black hole, it doesn’t matter where on earth it is, that would be the end.
People aren’t afraid of science because science beat polio and smallpox after faith and religion failed completely for a few thousand years.
13
greg
// Aug 7, 2008 at 11:46 am
more afraid of science? what do you mean? scientists are always scared. most just make the logical math of assessing risk and reward. it’s not always right, but it is quite often taken into account.
CERN has done an extensive safety study of this project.
http://public.web.cern.ch/public/en/LHC/Safety-en.html
oh and when i mean feel it, i mean you would probably die if a continent disappeared. i was being sarcastic. if one volcano explodes on the planet, everything is affected.
there is reason to be concerned, but that fear should be based on facts, not science fiction.
14
greg
// Aug 7, 2008 at 11:53 am
nate, highest quality of life? that just isnt true. you better look around you. go into a lab, and see who is employed there. there is a major science drain in this country. we may have the best scientists, but those were people trained in a different era.
this is partly what i do, as a job. it’s beyond anecdotal now. i love america, but it is not living up to its legacy of being leaders in science. its increasingly becoming a lot more attractive to do science in europe. that is a trend we should be concerned with now.
15
Stefan
// Aug 7, 2008 at 11:59 am
You guys are crazy. USA rules science, mostly because they took all the smart german scientists after WW2, forgave them their sins, and , most importantly, gave them money. Science is always going to be wherever there is cash, and thats the US of A. And besides, what better place to put an international project than switzerland> Nowadays there is no more monopoly on knowledge. I bet these guys with the helmets are each from a different country, probably having stduied in yet another (couple of) country(ies). but the funding is USA.
16
NateG
// Aug 7, 2008 at 12:10 pm
I’ve worked in a few labs before… including ones that were at the head of their field both in market domination and sophistication of their technology… and the scientists there are top notch… a little bit older… but like getting a PHD typically takes 10-12 years anyways (5 for BS, 6 for physics PHd average)…
and highest quality of life (maybe japan wins, but i haven’t been there nor talked to anyone from japan… plus its crowded as fuck there…) i stand behind, but i will admit that is maybe based more on the material side of things and not on the cultural side…
anyways, like i am saying i agree that our dominance is in decline… i personally don’t believe that decline will last and there is a lot of hope for the future here…
and like i am saying i kind of wish that CERN was here as well as many other US scientists, but we have had our fair share of having all important labs in the US as it is…
17
greg
// Aug 7, 2008 at 12:23 pm
“anyways, like i am saying i agree that our dominance is in decline… i personally don’t believe that decline will last and there is a lot of hope for the future here…”
we lag behind in all measures of what would produce competitive scientists and engineers. less people are going into those lines of work. the life comfort you talk about is harder for the middle class (the economic strata that scientists usually inhabit) than any other time in the past 50 years. foreign students from poorer countries like india and china fill labs. there is a lack of diversity (although getting better) in the sciences.
where do you see that this problem is improving enough for you to even come close to saying, it’s ok? the reason that you keep seeing older scientists is not because it takes so long to complete a phd. its because there are less people around. that statement is not logical. there is a problem, nate.
18
NateG
// Aug 7, 2008 at 12:37 pm
stefan nailed it dude…
like i would say for the next 10-20 years we could still manage to snag the best and the brightest cuz we have all the $$$ and comfort… also cuz our military has consistently funded and got off the ground every important technological project since ww2… examples being: nuclear power, internet, software, computers, optics, telecommunications, lasers…
Even today DARPA and DOE grants fund projects on the forefront of science… such as like the lasers they are developing to try and make fusion happen in this way that makes sense (like gaining electricity instead of using more).. like every major solar panel company depends either on grants won from the DOE or research gained from grants funded by the DOE.. same thing with LED lighting (seen by most learned people as like the best way to reduce energy use)
Its like for the past 50 years we have had an incredible margin over everybody… now that margin isn’t as big cuz we have been cutting education budgets so much where other people haven’t…. I kinda feel like, its not that we’re totally sucking right now, its more like other countries can finally compete… especially now that the euro doesn’t suck.
19
beth
// Aug 7, 2008 at 1:02 pm
today, things are very, very serious.
20
greg
// Aug 7, 2008 at 1:21 pm
what do you think its like to live in europe , anyway nate? those two things you just said, money and comfort, are available there too. and its also a major problem that we are using outside workers to fill science and engineering jobs.
the problem is not just “the science is done here”, its also about the american legacy of science being done by americans. that is important, because culturally, living a science culture (because of your job or just plain interest in it)has as much impact improving lives and reaching discoveries as any other institution that society produces.
that is a major sign of economic decline. or civilization decline, when citizens dont keep up their love of science.
and that also leads to less money being made. which leads to less comfort, which last i checked, were the two things that you said would make everything ok.
21
NateG
// Aug 7, 2008 at 2:00 pm
i mean living in europe is pretty rad… just saying like when you go to a grocery store there you are not going to get like this super rad fresh produce of all sorts like we have here..
those “bread and butter” issues influence these things alot… having the money makes a difference if only its superficial…
i am just saying, i don’t think we’re fucked. things aren’t the best, but hey we still have a lot of rad shit going on… just need to change course before we get in a really bad spot…
tis all.
22
phil
// Aug 7, 2008 at 2:41 pm
I don’t think it’s necessary for America to be number 1 forever in science, but I think we should always be trying to push things forward and make new discoveries. I think that the anti-science feelings in this country are a bit scary.
I’m voting for Obama also but he is, after all, a born again Christian who claims to have a personal relationship with a man who’s been dead for 2,000 years. How plausible would an atheist president be in America?
They have fresh produce over there also, Nate. One thing they can’t seem to compete with us on is the availability of ice cold 48oz sodas at any time or place.
23
heypal
// Aug 7, 2008 at 2:44 pm
i want to chime in here because i think nateg and stefan have hit on something, and it has a name: it’s called free market capitalism. sure it’s a system that has its problems, but when these scientists are faced with a choice between working in the private sector in their own countries where they are likely to be taxed up to 50% of their gains or working for peanuts and television access in the public sector, our flawed system is going to be mighty attractive to them.
there is a problem with brain drain because we are not staying competitive on the global level. places like india and china have taken our intellectual resources and innovations, imported them, and have begun to build upon them. i don’t think that this has as much to do with education as some others. it think it has more to do with the concept of ‘land of opportunity’ that the U.S.A. should be maintaining a little better.
that said, there is a problem with education here. overcrowded schools, budget cuts, dwindling literacy rates, and probably most frighteningly, a growing apathy toward sciences in general. i think we as a nation need to figure out a way to shift our identity back to one that looks to science for answers, not a texan god.
24
heypal
// Aug 7, 2008 at 2:46 pm
also, phil, this is totally the wrong place for this comment and maybe i’ll try to say things like this in the right place in the future, but here it is today and this is what i want to say:
i like the time stamps. yay.
25
NateG
// Aug 7, 2008 at 3:07 pm
@hey pal
yeah, free market capitilism is good… although i do believe in a moderate amount of regulation and sliding tax scales!
26
greg
// Aug 7, 2008 at 3:47 pm
Having a better relationship with science in this country by no means hinders free market capitalism. If you care about American competiveness in the future , I feel that this brain drain is a bigger problem than you may be giving it credit. I dont want be an alarmist but it worries me.
27
donovan
// Aug 7, 2008 at 4:41 pm
words. words words words. words words, word word word. Words! words words words words; words word words word words. Word words? Words.
28
heypal
// Aug 7, 2008 at 4:59 pm
@greg: i think the brain drain is an enormous problem.
@donovan: word.
29
prof. fancy pants
// Aug 7, 2008 at 6:25 pm
here are some related stats:
http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf08302/
the graphs of trends in first-time, full-time S&E enrollment as varied by field and citizenship tell a nice story.
30
greg
// Aug 7, 2008 at 7:47 pm
great chart! Check out what’s doing well. More women and minorities but post docs are two to one foreign grads. Hmmmmm !!
31
NateG
// Aug 7, 2008 at 10:19 pm
uhm, actually for post docs the ratio isb ~ 1.5:1
if you check out first time full time grad enrollment, the ration is like american to foreign 2:1… if you look at the ration of all s&e students (excluding post docs) american to foreign is 2.5:1…
makes sense that postdocs positions would rather be filled be foreigners cuz those positions typically pay shit so they would be filled by people who are either very passionate about their field or who are trying to gain u.s. citizenship.
Also, never said having a good relationship with science hinders a capitalistic society… rather i was trying to point out that our ability to innovate is superior to other countries in the world because of the nature of said capitalism.
i mean, i am all for throwing hella more money at S&E related stuff and education in general. that would be rad. Also, i am trying to find a job right now and it super hard and i have this degree in physics i want to use. so maybe i am just trying to be optimistic!
32
greg
// Aug 7, 2008 at 11:12 pm
I hope you find that work. You are ignoring my orginal claim. The state of labs being full of foreigners (and the pay etc is not a valid excuse for this) is not a good trend. And if you take a look at the ten year trend, there is a major decline in a key American demographic in the sciences: white males, whose total numbers have decreased while every other demographic, women, blacks, hispanics has increased. That is some really important stuff!
You must log in to comment. I tried it the other way and had to erase 1,000 ads for viagra and mortgages one by one. Register here, it takes less than ten seconds.